Allan G. Johnson
Allan G. Johnson
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If Not Capitalism, What?

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You are critical of capitalism, but what is the alternative?

When I think about alternatives to capitalism, I go back to basics, to the question of what any economic system actually is and what it does. In every kind of society, whether it’s communal hunting-and-gathering or global industrial capitalism, the answer has two parts.

The first has to do with how a society goes about producing goods and services. In one sense this refers to the method of producing something and what’s used to produce it. Hunter-gatherers don’t plant crops, for example, while agrarian societies cultivate fields with plows, and industrial societies use heavy machinery and other technology to plant, harvest, and process food and even make some of it up in the lab.

In another sense, the act of production is also social—people are organized in relationships through which goods and services are produced. It’s the difference, for example, between shoes being made by independent shoemakers working on their own in small shops and shoes being mass produced by worker-employees in factories owned by someone else.

The second thing to know about an economic system is what happens to what is produced—how it’s distributed among people in the society and who benefits. In other words, what’s the point of economic activity?

If you look at most human societies over the last several hundred thousand years, the point of economic systems has been quite simple and unsurprising—to provide for the needs of the people who participate in them. The tribe needs a way to come up with food and shelter because the people of the tribe have to eat and get out of the rain. Cooperation and sharing have been important values because they make for efficient production and it’s how you make sure everyone gets what they need. Which has been the point in most places for most of history.

The most important thing to realize about industrial capitalism is that it is not organized to meet the needs of the people who participate in it. It is not the first system for which this has been true, but it is the latest version and it dominates the world. It’s true that capitalists have to produce things that people need (or, if not, to persuade them that they do) in order to sell goods and make a profit. If, as a result, capitalism does happen to meet the needs of people, that’s fine, but that is not the point of the system. The point is to allow individuals to compete with one another in order to maximize personal wealth. How this affects everyone else is, within fairly broad limits, largely beside the point.

This means that when a small portion of the population manages to take most of the wealth for themselves, the system is simply operating as it is designed to do. If millions of people don’t have enough food or shelter or decent healthcare, or if roads and bridges and schools are falling apart, or if the planet and other species are being degraded or destroyed, none of this is taken as a sign that the economic system itself is failing. To see how this shows up, all you have to do is look at the list of ‘economic indicators’ used to show how well the economy is doing. There you will find hardly anything designed to measure the quality of people’s everyday lives, the degree to which their needs as human beings are being met. Not to mention the well-being of the planet and non-human species whose fate is inseparable from our own. Such things are not represented because they are not the point of the capitalist economic system.

Over the vast majority of human experience, organizing the world in such a way would have made no sense at all. It would have seemed bizarre and profoundly unwise, even murderous and suicidal, and a repudiation of what it means to live as a full human being. That an economic system would not only allow but encourage a small minority to take almost everything for themselves, that it would support the belief that there is no such thing as too much, that human beings can do whatever they want and imagine a future in which they thrive while the rest of the planet goes under, is so far beyond the boundaries of reality as to be, well, a little crazy. And yet that is precisely where we are, living a kind of systemic insanity based on fantastically insupportable assumptions.

So, if not capitalism, what?

It’s really very simple: An economic system designed first and foremost to meet the needs of human beings and the Earth and the non-human species who call it home, that honors the biological and moral fact of life that we are indeed all in this together.

And how do we get there?

We can only begin where we are, facing the first obstacle in our path, which is the sacred assumption of capitalism that the pursuit of individual greed can be the basis for a moral society and a sustainable planet. Challenging this assumption will mean, among other things, changing the rules that both allow and encourage the unlimited and unaccountable private accumulation of wealth; the massive and reckless gambling and speculation in the financial industry that enriches the few while producing catastrophe for everyone else; and the power of wealth to control major institutions, including the political system.

There are societies that provide an example of what an alternative might look like. Norway is one. It was relatively untouched by the 2008 financial meltdown that rocked the world, because Norway doesn’t allow individual and corporate greed to be the dominating force in their economy. Banks and other financial institutions, for example, are highly regulated and income taxes are high enough to generate the revenue that provides for the basic needs of everyone, such as health care and education.

It’s important to be aware that many of the defining characteristics of capitalism are retained. Businesses are privately owned, for example, by individuals and corporations. One exception to this are resources that are vital to everyone’s wellbeing, such as energy, which are either owned or tightly regulated by the government on behalf of the entire country. Norway’s abundant North Sea oil reserves, for example, are owned by the country as a whole and not private corporations, and the income generated is distributed across the entire population.

There is a name for this kind of economic system. It’s called ‘democratic socialism’. We hear all the time in the U.S. that we’re supposed to be afraid of the ‘socialism’ part because it supposedly means a loss of freedom and the value of the individual. That certainly happened in the first large-scale attempts at socialism—the Soviet Union and China—but there are numerous current examples such as Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Switzerland, and the Netherlands where socialist principles have worked out much differently (the ‘democratic’ part). If by ‘freedom’ we mean being able to do whatever we want regardless of the consequences, then socialism does mean less freedom than we have in the U.S. But such limits affect primarily the wealthy and corporations, not the great majority of ordinary people. Which is why it is the wealthy and powerful, especially through their control of the mass media, who are continually warning us about the ‘dangers’ of socialism.

Americans are routinely told that we are the most free people on the planet, that everyone wishes they were American, that our standard of living and health care system are the best in the world. But any serious look at the evidence quickly shows this isn’t true. Just ask Norwegians (or Swedes or Danes or . . . ) who routinely come out far ahead of the United States on measures of personal happiness and quality of life, including crime, health care, social mobility, income, wealth, and democracy.

This does not mean that the U.S. can or should become a large and more complex version of a homogeneous country like Norway whose history and circumstances differ markedly from our own. The example of democratic socialist countries, however, can provide a point of view from which the U.S. can ask critical questions about how our economic system works and the consequences that result, something this country has, so far, been unwilling to do in a serious way.

Finding an alternative to capitalism begins with confronting the reality of the economic system we all participate in and how it shapes our lives and the planet we live on.

_______________________

Copyright © 2013 by Allan G. Johnson. All rights reserved. This article may be quoted, reprinted, or distributed for noncommercial purposes only and with an attribution to Allan G. Johnson, www.agjohnson.com, and this copyright notice.
For recent data on how the U.S. compares with other developed nations, see Howard Steven Friedman, The Measure of a Nation, 2012.

112 Responses to "If Not Capitalism, What?"

  1. Dave D says:
    September 26, 2012 at 7:34 pm

    “But such limits affect primarily the wealthy and corporations, not the great majority of ordinary people.” You speak in other writings about racism and sexism and the majority putting down the minority. The system you propose is the most prejudiced. You wish to put down the smallest minority in the world- the individual. You wish to take from those that innovate and earn their money and give to those that do not contribute. What motivation do people have to create new things or do anything at all if they know that someone will give them enough to live?

    Reply
    1. Allan Johnson says:
      September 28, 2012 at 7:30 am

      This is probably a good place to begin a list of Myths about Democratic Socialism—

      Myth #1: The individual is oppressed and has no value in democratic socialist countries. This is a strange charge given the priority placed on individual well-being and the high rank of such countries on measures of individual happiness and quality of life. Which society, for example, values the individual more: one where people are saved from having to choose between feeding their children and getting their teeth fixed or one where everyone is on their own, sink or swim?

      Myth #2: Democratic socialism encourages people who are able to contribute to nonetheless just kick back, not work, and have their living provided by the taxes paid by their friends and neighbors. This, of course, would be a really stupid if not impossible way to run a society, which no one in their right mind would support, and which, as far as I know, has never existed either in theory or in practice in any society past or present, democratic socialist or otherwise.

      To be continued . . .

      Reply
      1. David Waters says:
        June 7, 2016 at 4:29 pm

        In the future someone will campaign for legislature that will force capitalism to be honest and fair, as it will not only produce a better country but also more productive businesses as it’s incentives will be based on performance and nothing else. So people truly get what they deserve. Governments tax us and we like to know why the tax is so much and where it is going, but because businesses tax our labor (profits) before they distribute, we have no right to know why and for how much? Who does this protect? How can an hourly wage be fair if the business owner does not even know why your labor is worth that amount, and not less or more. In fact, many businesses pay people based on what the employee thinks is fair, and they do this because the employee has no conception of his value to the company, especially not before he is hired. This leads to most people wanting to survive, some people wanting to be comfortable, and some others wanting some luxury, while others can collect profits of unknown size from their labor for unknown reasons other than they can.

        Reply
      2. Robert says:
        June 30, 2017 at 7:45 pm

        Thank you, Allan, for this post. The subject of capitalism, and how it is not sustainable or healthy overall, has been intently on my mind of late. The one thing that I did not have any pieces of evidence for previously, was on what could replace it in a way that could meet the needs of the masses and takes into account the greater good for the planet. Your post has a great deal of merit and I look forward to continuing my research on this all too important subject.

        Reply
    2. Marcus says:
      February 24, 2014 at 7:34 pm

      SO if I read this correctly it is the difference between the pursuit of being a trillionaire and putting ideas out for your benefit as well as others. Perhaps the difference between a society that praises the individual, as compared to, a society who praises the group. He brings up an interesting point that I have found very interesting to build a thought process off of, but nevertheless I must admit any talk of Socialism does scare me based upon how I was raised.

      Reply
      1. Allan says:
        February 25, 2014 at 9:45 am

        I don’t believe we have to choose between the individual and the group. It’s a matter of striking a balance between the two.

        Reply
        1. Chris says:
          November 13, 2014 at 8:29 am

          I not only agree with this, I would argue that this is the main point of democratic socialism. Balance servers and rewards naturally in the universe, and the idea this is different in a social structure seems counterintuitive.

          Value of people over money and the interest of all (not only humans but species we share the Earth with) over the interest of one has to be an obviously better way. So why don’t Americans push for change?

          Reply
          1. George says:
            July 21, 2015 at 10:04 pm

            Because people do not understand how it would be different, and you will always Fear what you do not understand, and you will always run away from Fear, so that right there stops most of your questions about change. No legitimate congressman and especially no President ever can propose a system like this, given how they are currently elected and make their voting choices with the biggest SuperPac contributor dictating what gets passes and what doesn’t.

    3. MM says:
      April 5, 2014 at 8:05 pm

      Actually, studies have shown that a creative incentive has far more effect in higher cognitive jobs than a financial one.

      Reply
      1. CRC says:
        July 17, 2016 at 6:28 pm

        Could you give some examples of this please?

        Reply
        1. Tino Calenda says:
          July 30, 2016 at 7:26 pm

          There are a number of studies which have demonstrated that innovation is not tied to financial reward. The work of Jacque Fresco with the Venus Project has been one such example of a proposed economic solution which builds on that concept. Here is a link to an article in the Harvard Business Review which covers this subject and offers references to studies and other areas of inquiry to provide you with examples: https://hbr.org/2014/06/dont-offer-employees-big-rewards-for-innovation. Further you can look to the Nordic countries which have systems of democratic socialism and have still managed to produce innovative and successful multi-national companies examples include H and M, IKEA, Nokia, Volvo, Ericsson, Electrolux, and Kone. It is possible and it can be done. For another example look to Canada which has a similar system and has produced RIM which gave us the Blackberry Phone, and the Perimeter Institute which has a major hand in the development of the first Quantum computers.

          Reply
    4. dibakar says:
      June 1, 2014 at 10:55 am

      @Dave ‘those that innovate’–This is not always true. The capitalistic system invests heavily in Research. Innovation in most of the cases is done by people working under them. Moreover, no innovation is independent, all are based on knowledge acquired by the society over period of time, for which that particular capitalist has not invested anything.

      In an alternate system, innovation can be funded by society and all people get the benefit. For example, all medical research can be funded by an international agency with contribution from member states. The innovation can be made available free to any one wants to produce it without any license payment.

      Reply
    5. Daniel says:
      November 30, 2014 at 11:13 pm

      The motivation to do things should not come in the form of greed; rather it should come from the motivation that human beings do things to better our existence as a species! We will never become more if we refuse to be more than we are. We fight over scraps rather than trying to better each others lives. Society needs to find a new way of rewarding one for being creative and inventing new things.

      Reply
    6. Gabriel Mehedinti says:
      September 26, 2015 at 8:41 pm

      The political system does not really matter! What matters is the People who lead the system. If the People who lead the system are honest and have integrity, any political system would work. Unfortunately power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is the greatest problem humanity faces.

      Reply
      1. Allan says:
        September 27, 2015 at 5:54 pm

        The political system matters a great deal because, for one thing, it determines how easy or difficult it is for leaders to have access to absolute power. Individuals and systems do not exist independently of each other.

        Reply
    7. Chad says:
      May 25, 2016 at 1:16 am

      I’m not sure if you just skimmed through the article but if you actually read it, you would see that Norway, Denmark, Switzerland ect have the best performing economy’s in the world..

      Reply
    8. Nick simson says:
      June 30, 2016 at 3:17 pm

      ‘Those that do not contribute,’ (as you say) do contribute. They are the people who buy the goods that make rich the clever hard working individual. I think what Allan is saying is that democratic socialism would tax the clever individual slightly more (although personally I disagree with the term democratic socialism for a system that taxes higher).

      Reply
    9. david says:
      August 9, 2016 at 4:25 pm

      The motivation is life, to live and thrive together as one species.

      Reply
    10. Michael Bush says:
      May 5, 2017 at 11:14 pm

      I’m sorry to say that your view is small in terms of a civilization scale. The current capitalistic view of our society causes massive issues throughout the entire system including education and healthcare system profiteering that undermine the entire civilization and everything we have been working towards for a thousand years.

      Have you ever stopped to think that the reason we have non-participation in our society is that people are largely unhappy with the system they are thrust into?

      Reply
    11. Rich says:
      May 17, 2017 at 3:41 am

      Interesting you should mention motivation – there are many ways to be motivated to do things in life, and you’ve got to ask yourself, is money and self-interest (especially to a point of extreme excess) a good motivator morally speaking? Or are there better, more moralistic, more beneficial ways of being motivated, such as through the sense of accomplishment, or the respect gained from others for doing something altruistically that is to the benefit of society. I feel like excess money and material wealth is a trivial and much less meaningful reward for innovation and not only that, but undermines at least the latter of the two, and maybe the former to some extent as well.

      Reply
  2. Patrick says:
    October 1, 2012 at 7:16 pm

    It seems that you avoided countering Dave’s second criticism of your theories . . . Why should I strive to become a lawyer/doctor/innovator if I am provided the same benefits as those that don’t? You can’t assume that all people possess the same drive to learn and advance the human race. Incentive is the most powerful and basic human drive. So when you take away the balance of risk/reward and cost/benefit, you are left with the logical solution in people’s minds that overachieving is simply not worth the effort. Even if socialism were to keep part of the reward system intact, the rate of innovation would be far lower. Without capitalism, who’s to say that we would be where we are now technologically? Intellectually? There is no such thing as a utopian system, Mr. Johnson. Division is in our nature. A system that does not embrace our differences and divisions (good AND bad) as human beings is bound to fail.

    Reply
    1. Allan Johnson says:
      October 2, 2012 at 9:35 am

      Myth #3: Democratic socialism exists only as a utopian theory that is bound to fail in pratice because it ignores human nature. I am not being theoretical in suggesting democratic socialism as an alternative to capitalism. The countries mentioned above have organized themselves around democratic socialist ideas and, as a pratical matter, are doing very well compared with the United States. They have, for example, high levels of material prosperity, better health care outcomes and longevity, little if any poverty, far lower rates of violent crime, much higher voter participation in elections, better educated populations who are more knowledgable about the world and science, higher self-reported levels of well-being and happiness, governments that avoid the kind of angry gridlock current in the U.S., and a more sustainable relation to the Earth. They are, of course, not utopias, but actual societies in which people struggle with all the problems that come with the human condition. But from the evidence, it is hard to fault their grasp of human nature or their ability to innovate in comparison with the United States.

      Myth #4: In democratic socialist societies, there are no incentives to strive because benefits are the same regardless. This is both true and not true. It’s true in the sense that a benefit like universal health care means everyone has access to health care regardless of what they accomplish in life. It is not true in the sense that everyone’s standard of living is the same. Physicians and department store clerks, for example, do not have the same incomes. Socialism is not about making everyone the same. It is about trying to ensure the basic well-being and dignity of everyone, which is quite different.

      To be continued . . .

      Reply
      1. Jean Henry says:
        June 16, 2017 at 11:19 pm

        Scandinavian countries still rely on capitalist wealth generation. They have some of the highest wealth inequality in Europe. And some of the lowest corporate taxes and the highest individual taxes. I like their model but don’t understand how it is that you declare it anti-capitalist. It appears to simply be heavily taxed capitalism with a robust social benefit system.

        Reply
        1. Allan says:
          June 17, 2017 at 4:40 pm

          I don’t see or describe Scandinavian countries as anti-capitalist. I offer them as examples that can help to frame a much-needed critical examination of how capitalism works and its consequences, especially as practiced in the U.S.

          Reply
          1. Leeroy says:
            June 20, 2017 at 6:00 am

            How would Norway’s economy and social structure differ if it didn’t have oil reserves to pump out?

          2. Allan says:
            June 21, 2017 at 2:57 pm

            They’d have less national income, as they did before the discovery of oil in the North Sea in 1969. I also expect they would still be the country that, when oil was discovered, had no problem deciding to use the resulting wealth to ensure the well-being of the Norwegian people rather than enrich small elites.

    2. Alistair says:
      May 2, 2014 at 2:54 am

      You are ensorcelled by the idea of capitalism without realising that you are its slave. The harder you work the more you become enslaved. You get a more expensive car, a bigger house and run up so much household debt, because you can afford the payments, until one day the fear takes you and you stop challenging your bosses who also fear you taking over from them at which point you shut up and suck up just to protect you lifestyle. This is exactly where the 1% want you. You think they work hard? No it’s mostly inherited, this so called capitalist system is really a hidden monarchy we can’t even revolt against because we don’t even know who they are. The end result is that we will never challenge the system and continue to rape the resources of the planet until 50 years from now our children face I hate to think what. Wake up and start believing that there is an alternative and the author of this article is right, this begins with mutual ownership of energy.

      Reply
      1. Pyramid Of Control says:
        April 1, 2016 at 11:37 am

        Couldn’t agree more Alistair! Actually, the Yeah Yeah Yeahs have a song with some lyrics along these lines: “Buy this car to drive to work, drive to work to pay for this car!”

        Anyways, decent song, great article! I often read through these comments to help bolster my optimism in humanity 🙂 I appreciate your thoughts, as well as Allan’s, in the fact that you’re a link in the chain that is making ideas like this more tangible for a lesser-read audience.

        These are the kind of comments that need to exist, in order to pull people into the debate on a more confident level. As well as Allan has laid it all out here, there are still those that can’t research for themselves and feel confused as to what to believe, especially if there exist voices of dissent in the periphery. People are terrified animals, and practical comments of this nature can cut through the fog of misinformation in a way that raw statistics and correlations can’t for the more apathetic seekers of knowledge.

        Thanks for being vocal and commenting in a cogent manner, keep fighting for knowledge and translating academia—otherwise these concepts may stay too high-thought for the common person to attach themselves to in any realistic sense. There are too many rivers of fear that seek to unravel and confuse the practical truths of the world. Our government (arguably a large corporation/parasitic evolution of the organized religion) is an ancient marketing firm and they survive by staying just out of reach, through intelligently interjected propaganda meant to mislead (scare) it’s constituency into making decisions that value dollars earned over the human condition.

        Reply
        1. Ron Corbin says:
          May 1, 2016 at 1:55 pm

          Historically, the greatest achievements of man came about not for personal financial gain. Think about the telephone for a moment; a gadget that fundamentally changed the entire world in more ways than we can ever comprehend. The driving force behind the invention of the telephone wasn’t the security of an engineering patent, it was love. There are hundreds more examples of people creating novel technologies just for the challenge of it. My point is to address all the naysayers who repeat the mantra that people only create and invent if there is a financial reward. That is a flawed idea because history shows us otherwise.

          Reply
          1. Cole Whitelaw says:
            March 11, 2017 at 5:41 am

            Totally agree but with a small caveat. Its worth considering that many people strive for financial reward right now because they fear a lack of basic elements if they don’t.

            Imagine a time when nobody fears that they’ll be homeless or hungry, the advancement of people based on their strengths, regardless of perceived commercial value, can only enrich a society instead of burying those strengths I’m the pursuit of a pay cheque.

        2. Troy says:
          January 18, 2017 at 12:46 am

          Very well put and directly to the point. I believe if we strive we can actually make an even better version of democratic socialism than any that currently exist.

          Reply
      2. Alan Watts Fan says:
        July 16, 2016 at 7:26 am

        Alistair, all I can say is if you chose that strategy, you played the game wrong. Anyone that understands this economic system knows that the outcome of such a strategy would result in you being a “wage slave”. However, even with all its faults, there are ways to play the game such that the outcome is not “wage slave” and you can choose this. You sound like a person that was enchanted with all the promises of material goods and such and got suckered into the consumerism game. You chose that.

        I’m not arguing for American Consumerist Capitalism as the best economic system because I agree that Democratic Socialism is better but you can’t blame your choices on the system.

        Reply
        1. Rich says:
          May 17, 2017 at 3:55 am

          What about those that didn’t have the choice as they were born into poor socioeconomic backgrounds, and who have very little opportunity to no opportunity to rise above a mundane and poorly paid job just to be able to afford to live.

          Reply
    3. Daniel says:
      November 30, 2014 at 11:19 pm

      Then don’t become a doctor/lawyer/engineer! But stop pushing your agenda to live like royalty simply because you think you are smarter or more talented in some way. Division is not in our nature. It is in our culture. This is proven by the many different ways that societies live. The breakdown of wealth in this country is horrendous. At what point do you think society will break? Because currently more than 2/3 of the country is living in poverty. This is way too high and at some point you need to be able to look at the bigger picture and know that the current society does not work!

      Reply
      1. Suzanne Luis says:
        January 25, 2016 at 8:47 am

        This theory that we are not divisive by nature excludes the heart of man, have you ever been jealous? Have you ever told a lie? Have you ever not been able to get along with someone or disliked someone? Do you know people who are competitive? You will never take drive and ambition out of the heart of man even if you remove incentives…they will become your privledged bureaucrats.

        Reply
        1. Colette Aubry says:
          May 4, 2016 at 9:50 pm

          It’s true that we all have and continue to feel jealousy, tell lies, dislike some other people and a range of other emotions. As children we express certain emotions in very negative ways. We act out, we have temper tantrums, we lie we cheat we take things that do not belong to us. But as we get older we learn better ways to deal with our feelings and needs. This does not mean that we do not feel the same emotions that we felt as children. It means that we have matured emotionally.

          Does Capitalism reward emotional immaturity? Donald Trump is a good example of this question. Working as a coach in an after school program, we would never allow the children to behave like Trump. It’s called bullying. The fact that a very small percent of the population can create horrible conditions for many, many others by lying, manipulating the stock market, reacting with fear and violence to those who do not look like them and yet have no feelings of guilt or remorse is a clear answer to this question.

          Reply
          1. Pyramidofcontrol says:
            May 5, 2016 at 1:13 pm

            Great analogy, so true.

      2. Marcelo says:
        January 20, 2017 at 2:47 am

        “At what point do you think society will break?”

        Well, according to Orwell the plebs would be the only hope of change, as they are the ones worse affected by the current state of the country. But this is not happening because the “American Dream” will always be there to elude them, and especially now when the entertainment and the medication industry is at a level in which the Huxleyan world has become a reality. As I pointed out earlier, the upper middle class is doing pretty good, thank you, no changes needed there. Don’t hold your breath waiting for a revolution…

        Reply
        1. Rich says:
          May 17, 2017 at 4:01 am

          The Internet is spreading awareness rapidly. We just have to wait and see who wins the arms race between awareness and action, and the militaristic spending of the elite, which will be used to protect their assets by discouraging or, if necessary, putting down a revolution.

          Reply
    4. Tom says:
      March 9, 2015 at 5:39 pm

      ” Incentive is the most powerful and basic human drive” – really? According to whom?

      Reply
      1. david says:
        August 9, 2016 at 4:30 pm

        someone who contributes to the pack gains benefits from the pack. someone who controls the pack benefits from mindless slaves

        Reply
    5. Sarah says:
      August 6, 2015 at 4:05 am

      Patrick,
      The division that you say is in our nature does seem to be validated to some extent in democratic socialism because the individual has a greater opportunity to pursue his/her personal interests for employment/innovation etc. by being better financially supported from the beginning. For example, a person who is interested in biology and feels it is in them to help others using medicine/healing practices would pursue education and a job doing that because a democratic socialist system would help pay for the education and time it takes to become a doctor, and as a result of this system, perhaps more people would become doctors. An added benefit to the individual is a better work/life balance because the healthcare system does not require doctors to work too much and miss out on other quality of life activities. Everybody wins. The only “problem” capitalist societies might see in this system is that the individual might not have the flexibility to travel as much or save money for stuff. I think it would be hard for people raised in capitalist societies to fully embrace democratic socialism “cold-turkey” because of the learned desire for overconsumption and not being happy with less or living mindfully.

      Reply
    6. Amanda says:
      August 28, 2015 at 7:19 am

      You should strive to become a doctor /lawyer/innovator due to personal interest, not wealth! As a species we have been innovating long before there were capitalist societies. That is what makes our species different from the animals, we invented tools, fire, etc without any incentives. Capitalism, the way it is today, is stifling and does not allow for as much innovative or creativity. Our schooling system is set up to stifle individuality, creativity and innovation. You must learn to “play the game” or fail. People are too busy and stressed to be able to think clearly enough to be innovative or creative. Sure there is a subset if the population that has had the opportunity to make it into jobs that allow them to innovate and between multiple groups competing they will work harder and harder to “innovate better” but that is a forced innovation. Einstein came up with his theories while working at the patent office because it gave him time to think and he was a creative person, not due to some external incentive. A democratic socialist system allows everyone’s needs to be met, which reduces stress which then allows for more free thinking and creativity. It is through relaxed thought that creativity and new ideas are born.

      Reply
      1. Chuck says:
        August 29, 2015 at 9:52 am

        I disagree somewhat with some of your statement. I think tools and fire had ENORMOUS incentive behind them….survival and convenience. Many people today gather wealth with greed for what THEY SEE as the same reason. Survival.

        Reply
    7. ariane david says:
      July 4, 2016 at 6:03 pm

      Patrick, you’re making the assumption that the only incentives that move people are material ones and that the only reward system is financial. Many people embark on careers because it excites them, and often it’s the materialistic part of it that burns them out.

      Reply
    8. JCL says:
      December 12, 2016 at 1:00 am

      No, not all possess the same drive to learn and advance the human race, but that’s okay, and many do have that drive. There are many careers that do not compensate proportionately to the amount of work, but that people choose because they want to help people (think social worker, teacher, EMT). Some are motivated by financial incentives, others by the desire to help people, and others are motivated by the desire to create and invent. I think it is flawed logic to assume that people are exclusively motivated by monetary incentives.

      Reply
  3. Naomi says:
    October 13, 2012 at 11:36 pm

    Who becomes a doctor/lawyer because of the money?? Usually the first motivating instinct is a passion to help people, the money comes later. The money that does come later often corrupts the initial passion!

    Reply
    1. Jon c says:
      February 18, 2014 at 10:53 am

      So, Allan. Is there a path for the U.S. between where we are to where we could be? Or, do you think the values in the American voting public and the political will are too far entrenched in the sacred freedoms of capitalism to allow enough change to save the poor, protect the planet, and redistribute wealth and power? And will we be able to harness the human capital we have as a nation in ways that provide and distribute enough for us all and advance us forward together?

      I am a financially comfortable healthcare professional who treats far too many underserved low income patients. And, I agree that this system is not working. But, as the most powerful nation in the world in this century, I’m not sure we will be able to get past our hubris and change before another nation comes up with a better, stable system of economics and government.

      Reply
      1. Allan says:
        February 18, 2014 at 11:40 am

        I don’t see evidence that would justify an optimistic response to the questions you pose. At the same time, I have seen enough things happen in the world that I would have said were impossible, that I am also not pessimistic. The alternative to both is to continue the struggle for something better because that is what I believe we are called as human beings to do.

        Reply
        1. Suzanne says:
          May 10, 2016 at 9:23 pm

          Sadly, I agree with you that there is very little cause for optimism. However, I have often observed that a catastrophic event or a series of crises and resulting disintegration can create the conditions and opportunities for a meaningful change, even if it’s one small group of people at a time. I suspect if you put the lowest common denominator in the White House, crisis could come to pass sooner than later. Should the US hit rock bottom, socially and economically, wouldn’t you say that people will be more open to alternatives ways of living? Or will we blindly seek to restore our “glory days”?

          It’s unfortunate there is currently no political or social space to experiment with alternative economic systems under controlled conditions – where’s that pioneer spirit when you need it? There’s no room to opt out of capitalism. Sounds like a lot of the folks in this string of comments would welcome trying something different. I would hope that people would view this as an exciting challenge – who doesn’t want to create a better world?

          I can imagine a better world but I can’t imagine how we can get there. If left up to the short-sighted political systems, I don’t see positive outcomes for us.

          Reply
          1. ed says:
            January 7, 2017 at 10:02 pm

            To a limited extent there are experiments going on in the “laboratories of democracy” i.e. the states. As a Californian I am aware that our relatively high-tax/high-regulation state has been among the best economic performers post-2008. While we are nowhere near democratic socialists (darn it) with lots of poverty and homelessness, neither are we Kansas.

    2. Brent says:
      October 8, 2015 at 11:35 am

      I know a lot of people who are going into law school for the money…

      Reply
  4. Robyn says:
    January 17, 2013 at 7:19 pm

    In my opinion our current capitalism gets in the way of any real progress. So much that is invented or created gets thrown out not because its not a better solution but because no one can figure out how to make a profit off of it. A great part of building a better future is staging a transition. There is no glory in this. We imagine the world of colonists and explorers as being all about rugged individualists, but they rode entirely on the efforts of a network of people who shared and cooperated. We are at that stage again but the extended hand is not being met. It is the lack of experience of competitive people that restricts their imaginations. The fact that a person can say that they don’t know how a person could be motivated to work if there were not capitalist incentives to do that work is like hearing a person declare that they are addicted to gambling and saying how great that is for everyone. There are so many who are lost in the illusion that they have missed, that the ship is turning, and that what is an appropriate response has changed.

    Reply
  5. Troy says:
    February 2, 2013 at 8:23 pm

    I am a die hard pro-capitalist and conservative, but I think you made some good points. Not ready to throw in the towel yet (on capitalism) but you definitely got me thinking. Thanks.

    Reply
    1. Pyramidofcontrol says:
      May 5, 2016 at 2:55 pm

      It’s truly refreshing and inspiring to read that these comments and this article were meaningful to you!

      I don’t think it’s about throwing the towel in at all… though I was under that impression previously in life. There are so many economic theorems and about a million different groupings of said systems; Eco-capitalism, Anarcho-capitalism, Keynesian economics, Austrian economics, Green-capitalism, Democratic Socialism, ad nauseam.

      With so many ‘wikipedi-able’ terms and systems it just gets so overwhelming it makes you want to throw your hands up and let the ‘pros’ decide on one. The pros unfortunately tend to be the miscreants at the top of the pyramid looking to reap unsustainable profit from the amoral nature of our dollar-centric system of hierarchical power. They don’t care about us, because it’s all about them and their roots of empathy have been poisoned by the profit machine that they worship–our system lacks genuine empathy, i.e. responsibility. It’s about making a buck currently, not about being preventative and progressive.

      However I think it reveals a simple, realistic truth, that we need a mixed economic system which takes into account on a directly practical level, the constituency and physical resource allocation that exists in the US. I mean what does life come down to on an island, simply? What do you need to be a comfortable and happy animal honestly, considering the realities of the island you exist on? Are there enough coconuts to eat? Do we have fresh water and enough space for everyone to build a hut?

      In definition, this is what the democratic system of voting was designed for–to future-proof collectively and to make choices together as to how our lives should equitably extend into the veiled horizons of time. However, the balance has been skewed and not many people truly honor this system any longer… when the practical power of big money gets tossed into the mix it’s easier for elected officials who should be looking out for our welfare to seperate themselves from the uncomfortable reality of life and embrace their fantasy life, full of big comfy dollars. Like Rory said below, this is a bad apples problem where the ‘few’ destabilize the vital process of our Constitution’s intention, to be able to decide collectively upon a greater good.

      We have a constituency that values truth and genuineness and equitability, but that also would like to be adequately compensated for the amount of work they exert–you can see them screaming in the streets with protest signs more and more these days. No truly practical person is under the impression that you don’t have to work for progress. Hence, the incentives of capitalism.

      Incentives are where it’s at, in-fact, look at nature, it’s one of the best ways to train animals. Incentivize properly and life explodes in predictable directions. Fail to incentivize and motivations die, as do currencies, as do economies. People need to know that they matter and that what they do matters and as a responsible, forward thinking species we need to think about what is fair and what is needed truthfully–not the propagandist smears of big money or the glossy values of mainstream marketing. What is it to be a human simply? Would we rather sweat equitably for something genuine or empower the agents of our own oppression?

      Reply
  6. Rory Bezecny says:
    February 3, 2013 at 9:50 am

    Many of the arguments we hear when someone proposes a system other than capitalism stems from the fact that our society has been brainwashed to think we all are or can be capitalists. The first step is to educate people that we are a partially capitalist but a mostly consumer society and to further narrow the definition of capitalist I would like to call it vulture capitalism. Vulture capitalism is mainly a phenomenon that takes place within the larger corporations. An example would the company my wife worked for in the 1990’s. It was a large clothing retailer. The owner died and the board of directors took over. They used the company as their personal ATM and within a year the company was out of business. It’s a safe bet that these individuals moved on to other companies and carried out similar actions. The problem with trying to correct this type of behavior is that individuals who act in this manner are able to accumulate so much political influence. They are able to write legislation that allows them to raid companies plus they own the politicians that vote on said legislation. The first practical step to eradicating these practices is to for individuals to do all they can to get Citizens United overturned. The next step is to push for lobbying reform. Thirdly, pressure your politicians to reform and enforce the estate tax. Many cry out about this but the reason this tax was put into place was to prevent families from becoming dynasties. If this tax had done what it was intended to do we never would have felt the will of the monied families of old or more recently the Waltons of Wal Mart fame.

    Reply
    1. Pyramidofcontrol says:
      May 5, 2016 at 1:27 pm

      We need more cogent debate like this in the world, and to be actively promoting this sustainable thinking on a publicly visible level.

      Appealing to friends and family is important since those are the folks that have a vested personal interest in you and will be willing to hear you out. Appealing to the constituency of this blinded country needs comments of reason and pragmatism such as this one.

      Keep commenting, keep being persistent in practical thinking, and don’t quit posting–the world needs people like you and comments like this 🙂

      Reply
  7. hiper says:
    April 8, 2013 at 5:46 am

    On this planet it is might that makes right. The vast concentrations of wealth in the hands of the few are only possible with military backing, hence ‘state backed capitalism,’read: vastly unequal distribution of wealth backed by the state’s monopoly on the use of force. If there was really such a thing as opportunity we would see wealth distributed equally over society because there would be genuine competition for it. The fact that it is concentrated at the top provides proof there is no competition. This is not rocket science. This is a human system and therefore it was rigged from day 1.

    Reply
  8. Desiree says:
    August 20, 2013 at 7:26 pm

    We were brainwashed, taught to think that socialism is bad for the world, that communists “eat” little kids and the only good thing is capitalism. Today we finally realized that the ones that instilled into our minds this idea are the 1% who actually profit from capitalism. The rest of us only work to keep the wheel spinning while misery and hunger increase around the world. Education, heath and security, it can’t stay in the hands of private enterprise.

    Reply
  9. Mark says:
    October 8, 2013 at 7:52 pm

    In order for the United States to achieve the type of Socialist Democracy you mention, there are at least two major obstacles. First, contrary to what some may believe the US constitution and the Bill of Rights were drafted and adopted to enshrine the rights of the individual, not society or the government. Government derives its authority from the governed. There are mechanisms within the constitution to alter or change that which “the people” feel is unjust or outdated. This has been done numerous times since the founding of the nation.

    Second, in order to institute a socialist agenda, a centralized government must dictate virtually all aspects of how people live their lives; wages, prices, how much health care you get and so on. I would argue any socialist system would run afoul of the tenth amendment since states would lose autonomy and become irrelevant. I believe what you propose is to scrap the constitution and institute centralized planning based on federal government mandate and control. I can’t think of anything further from the foundation of our country than that. If I wanted European style Socialism, I would happily move to Oslo.

    Reply
    1. Allan says:
      October 9, 2013 at 9:35 am

      I cannot disagree that unbridled individualism is the biggest obstacle to achieving some version of democratic socialism in the United States. We did manage, however, to create Social Security and Medicare without gutting the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.

      The perception that democratic socialism requires that “a centralized government must dictate virtually all aspects of how people live their lives” is simply incorrect. The ‘democratic’ in ‘democratic socialism’ is taken quite seriously in those countries, whose citizens participate in elections far more than we do and enjoy all of the civil liberties found in the U.S. In fact, when you consider how our government routinely invades the privacy of its citizens in the name of national security, if anything, the rights of the individual are better observed under democratic socialism.

      Reply
  10. Lizzie says:
    January 27, 2014 at 2:38 am

    First off, I would like to give you a great big THANK YOU. I am a seventeen year old high-school student, and everything I have found in your readings have made all of the sense I’ve been trying to come to myself for a long time. I’ve always thought about what the “Ideal system” would look like, and always come up completely short between socialism and capitalism. Basically, you put all the points in my head down in writing and made them all make sense to me (while, of course, adding others I hadn’t thought of . . . I’m no genius) and it really hit home. There is no ideal system, at least not in practice, right? You could say some way of doing things should be perfect, but unless the human race suddenly turned into clones of the ideal human, nothing will work perfectly. So all you can do is find the best possible way to be a society of imperfect, imprecise humans . . . I think I get it now. Capitalism, as we know it, is so popular because it’s so much easier for people to look for the ideal individual life, rather than struggle to find the impossible ideal society?

    Reply
  11. Shakeb Zuber says:
    May 31, 2014 at 4:11 am

    The points mentioned above are quite precise and true, but for me you’ve certainly missed the facts, what collective consciousness can do. We have to come in a conflict while fighting the present order. In any society whatsoever the struggle is from within and not pre-planned. So when you suggest a ‘model’ to the current alternative it should be in accordance with the struggle against capitalism and not something utopian. A part in which both the negative impacts of capitalism and socialism should be eradicated or dissolved and to find the common grounds for all. We can’t fight having to put on a model, feeling alienated to the current system, but we should be a part of it and growth should then follow within the system. There is always annihilation of the annihilation and the negation of the negations which makes the dialectics algebra of revolution.

    Reply
  12. Luke says:
    October 25, 2014 at 4:13 am

    The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.

    Reply
  13. Stephen (residing in Finland) says:
    October 26, 2014 at 3:37 am

    To me the key is incentive. Some people become doctors because they have a vocation, or they have the ability . . . and some because of the money. In Finland, some believe in a better society and work towards it, some work hard because that is how they built, some build businesses because they like the game . . . and a lot just milk the system because it is so easy to do so. The last group can and perhaps will bring the system down.

    All “systems” seem to have the same issues—people and their motivations. Capitalism in its purest sense worked best for its population when tempered with humanity, which actually seemed contrary to the objectives of Capitalism. In matter of fact, I have always believed moral business is often in the longer term better business. Being kind to your neighbor is not charity when in the next week he/she can afford to buy your product/services. It may seem socialist, Christian, whatever . . . but it can be good Capitalism as well.

    Two very dangerous things in my mind are unchecked consumerism (not consumerism but mad greed-driven consumerism) and financial short-termism (if there is such a word). Both are driving an unthinking stampede to decisions and actions which are detrimental to sustainable profits, growth, society (pick a word). This naturally leads to highs/lows in finance and society.

    No answers then just more questions . . . .

    Reply
    1. Sara Espinoza says:
      January 9, 2015 at 11:52 am

      What is one thing that does not involve capitalism?

      Reply
    2. desigal says:
      May 20, 2015 at 3:21 am

      unfortunately, for capitalism, the only morality is profit. so moral business is an oxymoron.

      Reply
      1. Zeus says:
        November 7, 2015 at 12:00 pm

        Unless the people decide only to do business with companies they know are “doing right” and have ideals towards a better future. Solar energy companies for example. If no change can be made, consumers can learn to start voting carefully with the money they do have, and campaign for the small and large businesses that operate with the enviornment and humanity in mind.

        Reply
        1. Nate says:
          May 12, 2016 at 11:30 am

          That’s the very heart of capitalism– that’s a right afforded by capitalism to choose who you do business with.

          If you don’t like Walmart’s policy or McDonald’s pay scale for their employees you don’t have anyone forcing you to do business with them. You can value whatever moral compass you possess and factor this into decisions you are making and companies can and do adjust to meet the desires of the majority, or to cater to minorities who are not being served.

          We see this principle functioning as a force for good in the world– cruelty free animal products, Tom’s shoes that donate a pair for each pair purchased, ect.

          If more people understood and participated in true capitalism then most of the complaints people have with the system would disappear.

          (Or half the complaints– the other half are products of government anti-capitalist regulations i.e. monopolies like cable companies who are not required to compete and can abuse customers due to a lack of other choices).

          Reply
          1. Pyramid of Control says:
            January 8, 2017 at 1:51 pm

            [I don’t usually post comments as long as this, but feel it contributes to the conversation. AJ]

            True, you are not forced under Capitalism to support business you don’t agree with—unless of course you’re born into a poor family that doesn’t come from a hegemonic lineage of money. Unequal resource allocation and private ownership of the means of production means that people beneath our system are still literally born into slavery.

            If you’re low-income and live in a poor area, your kids will not have the same advantages as an affluent city or equal access to solid education (socioeconomic research boldly points this out in the fact that good teachers don’t want to work in districts with no resources).

            So you’re not ‘forced’ per say, but when you take into account the suffering inequality in qualities of life between the haves and have-nots, it’s really quite the opposite. Are you really going to shop at Whole Foods or purchase ethically-progressive products free from toxins on a paycheck from a mindless service-industry job that pays you $30,000/year? Are you going to be able to eat tonight is sometimes a question. A plate of $30 food looks great, but only at McDonalds and Walmart does my buck truly s t r e t c h… which, if people truly wanted those industries, then that would be more democratic.

            However I have my doubts that they’d survive beneath an economy of educated, healthy individuals. It just isn’t logical, the Walmart model of ethics—who make a business of capitalizing on rich/poor animosity by draining local communities of almost one million dollars per year per store. Their adherence to minimum wage forces many of their employees into the welfare system. They frequently cut workers’ weeks shy of 40 hours to keep from having to dish out costly benefits like healthcare, which burdens the local economy two-fold (physical and mental health) and creates a feedback loop of dependence.

            This is the shadow of corporate oligarchy that is rising monolithically above the ruins of the American dream. It is killing us to not work together, but no one cares because they’ve been fed the Capitopian lie of western imperialism: ‘How do you get what you want? You fight for it!’

            Capitalism is heartless ultimately, as it seeks only economic growth as an indicator of progress. Which growth, without responsible regulation (aka free-market systems) harbor no concern for externals—costs associated with production (environmental degradation, health effects, etc).

            Philosophy is important to cohesion. As an ethical base, we are all born equal, yet our economic stratification and the suffering, master-slave relationship most are economically relegated to keeps most from having a truly equal chance to live and contribute. Most horizons are instead chasms of endless emotional darkness that can only be weathered with institutionalized brainwashing or inebriation/medication—which white-Capitalists love since it can net them a profit by selling off prison labor at outsourced wages to corporations (as low as 0.74¢/hr in Colorado for example).

            Slavery never dies. The only way to end this feast on the human spirit is to recognize it for the shape-shifting exploiter that it is. White privilege is real and Western education with its imperialistic indoctrination of dog-eat-dog and ruthless individualism breeds the worst diseases of foot-in-mouthiness.

            We could be mad at one another and kill each other in the streets over systemic imbalance, or we could work together and hold greed and selfishness accountable and fight for a new system that values the creative expansion of the individual toward a horizon of ethical Sustainability.

            With automation and climate knocking at the door, and progressive countries poised to roll out base income tests this year, I’d say the future could be so very bright. But if those two dilemmas are instead used to further the income divide and allow our masters of production to profit exponentially more from endless robotic surplus, then the world could literally implode in civil-war. Pair that with the inevitable population displacement that a warming climate will bring and pestilence/blight/weather disruptions and the picture becomes one of dystopian calamity.

            We are at the crux of Capitalism, and it is imperative that we come together now under a banner of socioeconomic progress. If we can’t lead by example as ‘the world power,’ then who else will truly try? Especially when we have a history of smashing dissenters with our iron fist of “democracy.” In the land of the free most still die as slaves…

            Aristotle had something to say about base-comfort in regards to happiness: “He is happy who lives in accordance with complete virtue and is sufficiently equipped with external goods, not for some chance period but throughout a complete life.” I think this is quite beautiful and potent. The systemic inequalities bred beneath this system of labor-skimming, exploitation causes good people to fall into tragic, self-defeating mindsets and to turn away from the realm of thinking—which is something to be avoided when your outlook is so damningly bleak. To rectify, we must support base-comfort, and provide the tool kits of education necessary to contribute to a global cohesion.

      2. Nate says:
        May 12, 2016 at 11:24 am

        You are completely wrong and mis-characterizing capitalism.

        Capitalism is the VOLUNTARY exchange of goods and services owned by the individual.

        The morality of capitalism is inherent in its voluntary nature– no one is being abused or oppressed because every exchange is made by their own free will.

        The individual has the right to determine what they value, and how much they value these things, and to make choices to live their lives according to their own personal conscience, not being forced to do or perform any act or service against their will.

        I shudder to live in a “democratic socialist” country where I can’t value my own labor, intelligence, and possessions and make choices to exchange things I value less for things I value more.

        Reply
        1. Allan says:
          May 12, 2016 at 1:18 pm

          “True capitalism” is an idealized version of capitalism that has not existed for more than a hundred years, with the United States now ruled by an oligarchy of corporations and the wealthy. And your description of life under democratic socialism bears no resemblance to any place that I’m familiar with. In Northern European democratic socialist countries, free enterprise flourishes and their people regularly report the highest levels of happiness in the world.

          Reply
        2. Drew says:
          May 24, 2016 at 5:23 pm

          You don’t control the value of your labor, intelligence, or possessions in your capitalist world, or the capitalist reality. In today’s society (capitalist society) the biggest barrier to entry is of a financial nature. This of course causes a smaller pool or near monopoly that people have to finance competition. As the wealth divide grows, access to capital becomes limited more and more. Which means in order to create a means of production you are operating against a force that has ever-growing leverage over you, eliminating your bargaining rights. What you call voluntary exchange is simply extortion as the “individuals” that you can do business with shrink more and more as they accumulate the only asset of any worth in a capitalist society.

          This doesn’t really got at the heart of your comment, so I’ll elaborate further. With only the elite having the means of production, and only those with the means of production being capable of offering compensation, you have NO (ZERO/NUNCA) control of your labor, because if you refuse their wage requirement, you starve to death. This problem is only going to get worse, as technology makes obsolete more and more jobs (I do understand in intent more innovation and production from it, creating more jobs; but as stated in the article it requires the middle class to be able to afford to consume the new innovative products). People will lose more and more bargaining rights in employment opportunities and therefore compensation. Wealth inequality destroys your argument easily!

          As far as intelligence is concerned, it’s free in every system of government and socialism is no different, yet in a capitalist society you are extorted into using it to obtain the means for existence. Your property is no different.

          What you truly fail to see, is that a system dependent on profit maximization plays no role in giving the individual what they want, but merely the system. If you are able to democratize it the individuals are allowed to participate in the ability to control the system.

          Reply
  14. Joan B says:
    December 14, 2014 at 4:58 am

    I find it interesting how we always seem to play this argument out against the two extremes. We also often frame the discussion around the idea that humans only care about one another when there is money involved. These are ideological constructs of the elitist capitalist structure and wealthy U.S. individuals. Why do they get to tell us how we operate . . . especially after so many decades now of proving pretty well that their system doesn’t work.

    I agree with the author here in that we need to move on as a species to design a system that provides opportunities for everyone—yes even the losers—and not get hung up on whether everyone is pulling the same weight. We need a system that has a better imagination than seeing money as the only incentive, and there is plenty of evidence that money is now the only incentive because we have been taught that it is the only thing of real value in society.

    None of this is rocket science or new. I am over 60 and have been hearing these ideas for my entire life.

    Reply
  15. chrisBo says:
    January 4, 2015 at 10:00 am

    Most of the so called ‘innovations’ are not necessarily needed. Sure, we all want things but do we need remotely controlled central heating or nanosprayed waterproof jackets? Many innovations were made by state employees and communists, the resource allocation of human capital was far more efficient. So, rather than a Maths genius working now in the financial sector, the Maths genius would work in science, techn, R&D or codebreaking. Do you really think that the internet or touch screen tech would not have been innovated by non-capitalists? I have noted that the myths about inefficiency are only related to private business arguments such as people paying and receiving purchased products faster. The real necessary services such as health will always be run slightly inefficiently due to the nature of the job. Capitalist consultants and middle managers have only made the health service worse by cutting essential staff, hence more inefficient now than ever (£30bn deficit). I also notice that the most financially savvy people in the world work for banks, most of which have been bailed out by the taxpayers. In a socialist system, these talented bankers would have their skills nurtured and trained in a more appropriate manner which benefits the state rather than bankrupts the economy.

    Reply
  16. Warren T says:
    February 8, 2015 at 3:23 pm

    In the context of improving the quality-of-life performance of a country or economy, terms like capitalism, socialism, and variations thereon seem meaningless and pointless. Each person hearing or reading those terms has a different idea of what they mean and these words often trigger responses that are mostly defensive rhetorical statements based largely on ideological rigidity. Instead it seems we need to clarify our goals and discuss specific changes we could make to our system (whatever you want to call the system before and after the changes) to achieve those goals. The northern European countries are outperforming the U.S. and most other countries not because they adopted “socialism”, “democratic socialism”, “state capitalism”, or any other “ism”, but because they have been constantly looking at what is working and not working, at home and in other countries, and tweaking their laws and regulations accordingly.

    The differences between those countries and others are subtle. Like all developed countries, the northern European countries have lots of millionaires, some billionaires, lots of big corporations and lots of small businesses, some poor people (but a smaller portion than most countries), some wealthy people cheating on their taxes or corporate welfare, some lower income people doing similar bad things, etc. They all are democratic and have market-based economies. Most of the means of production are privately owned. Who makes or provides what and who gets what, at what wage or price, are determined predominately by the market, not by the government.

    And those high-performing northern European countries have not all adopted the same solutions, which shows that there is more than one road to success. For example, to avoid the phenomenon of “working poor” some of those countries have promoted and protected labor unions while others have adopted a high national minimum wage. Some have implemented universal healthcare access via a government run single payer scheme, while others have achieved the same goal via universal private health insurance. Any country wishing to improve the quality of life for all of its citizens has plenty of implemented-elsewhere options to investigate and choose from. Or they can try novel techniques. At least in some countries, it seems the only thing preventing them from performing as well as the world’s best, is ideology. And nothing promotes irrational ideology more than talking about things like “capitalism” and “socialism” regardless of what qualifiers come before or after those terms.

    Reply
    1. Allan says:
      February 8, 2015 at 6:11 pm

      While I agree that ‘socialist’ and ‘capitalist’ are buzz words for many, the solution is not to discard them, but to reclaim them as accurate labels for, among other things, profoundly different worldviews. Socialism is informed by a fundamental concern with serving the needs of both society as a whole and all the people who live their lives as participants in it. Capitalism, however, is based on a competitive model that primarily serves the interests of those individuals who ‘win’ at the expense of everyone else. However imperfect particular versions of socialism may be, they have a great deal to teach us if we can get over the knee-jerk reaction that portrays capitalism as something holy and beyond serious criticism and socialism as an enemy of democracy. The capitalism in the U.S. has already gone a long way toward destroying democracy through the dominance of wealthy elites.

      Reply
    2. Wayne says:
      March 18, 2015 at 2:01 pm

      I agree that a social system does not need a title to be successful but in order to improve our current system we have to understand that it is driven by an ideology shared by the very richest and most powerful in society. It is also propagated by those very same people through their media empires. In order to have a government that has the mandate and will to make common sense changes based on the analysis of successes and failures in all societies we must first overcome the current Oligarchy that we find ourselves so helplessly enslaved to.

      Some might say that this is not a fight that can be won and that the only hope for change is to wait for their broken system to fail catastrophically but even then, if the right people are not ready with their alternatives the same system will rise up again. The secret of the success of the free market outriders is that they always have a plan waiting for the next opportunity, be it natural disasters, civil wars or economic crashes, they are always ready to exploit those that are in a state of shock.

      The answer unfortunately for those of us who live in the US or the UK, who truly want a more fair and balanced society is to up sticks and ship out.

      Reply
    3. Yvette Mendez says:
      March 29, 2015 at 6:42 pm

      Most of you make great intelligent remarks. Warren, yours is by far the most well thought out. I’m just happy to see these conversations happening. I have a feeling we’re headed in the right direction. Change is coming, we all know this. It’s just a matter of time.

      Reply
  17. Warren T says:
    March 18, 2015 at 5:09 pm

    Wayne, I agree wholeheartedly, though I am perhaps more hopeful that the ship can be turned, albeit gradually. Allan, you, and some other commenters have collectively made great contributions here to spreading awareness of the problem and potential solutions. I would encourage you to continue to support that effort rather than abandoning ship.
    Thanks.
    Warren

    Reply
    1. Wayne says:
      March 19, 2015 at 8:49 pm

      It’s difficult to remain optimistic after the crash of 2008. In the immediate aftermath a few prominent left wing commentators claimed it was the end of rampant capitalism. They couldn’t have been more wrong as they underestimated the influence of the mainstream media and apathy of the British people. The free market myth had been laid bare but there was no credible opposition around to take advantage. It highlighted that the general public have no real understanding of economics or even politics. The establishment has alway taken care not to upset the populous too much for fear they may revolt. They now know that no such revolt will ever happen. I’m not completely disheartened, as I firmly believe that even if there is no opposition to capitalism it will ultimately fail. It’s just a shame so many people will have to suffer in the interim.

      Reply
      1. Korbin says:
        June 2, 2015 at 5:15 am

        I think it takes one catastrophe to wake up enough to be ready for the second or even third. I had no understanding of economics or politics before the crash of 2008 because I felt focusing my learning on other things was more important. The incident has opened my eyes and I have begun educating myself in both arenas. It was never interesting to discuss these topics with my friends before, and now it regularly comes up.

        People everywhere in this country are putting their feelers out for change in areas they never have before. It takes many signs to rouse a content people, but awake and agitated we are becoming.
        Occupy was not a success, but by the time the next movement of the people happens, we will have all learned from Occupy, and have the energy not to live through a repeat disappointment.

        Until Antartica is available for the next grand continental melting pot experiment I don’t personally believe in revolution but in evolution. Most people, I think, feel the stakes of violence too high for revolt. But for anyone to assume that inaction when we were surprised equates to inaction into the future will be making dangerous decisions with incorrect assumptions. I hope it does not come to that.

        I was reminded today that we have really chilled out in the last 500 years. Made a huge amount of progress towards the well being of all people. We hurt other things a lot (like earth), but we only just started to hear them complaining. In the age of technology instant gratification has become an expectation. Let’s make sure to take a step back and work for the long haul instead of running around like armed headless chickens.

        There are a lot of issues contributing to the problems, and politicians need to start loosing their jobs to stand up and fix things. That is how Australia got their assault rifles out of homes, policy makers made sacrifices for what they believed in. Until democracy happens (now that it can *ahem, the internet) perhaps all of us who are not interested in the political game should do a public service and run for office only to fall on the right sword.

        Reply
  18. Jay says:
    May 18, 2015 at 10:59 pm

    First off you all have amazing responses, but which one of us will actually take action to change the world? I know that each one of us will think about it and then probably doubt ourselves, that it can’t be done because we don’t believe we have all the answers, or we are not intelligent enough or whatever the issue may be. Truth is, if an individual had all the right answers we wouldn’t be having this conversation right now. We all were put into this world equally so it is unjust to have only a certain percentage of people make decisions that affect everyone. A system that is needed is a system run by each individual that is affected by it. We all will feed off of each other creating a world that builds one another up. How can we expect the lawmakers to make changes to situations that they are not and may have never been effected by?

    Reply
    1. Korbin says:
      June 2, 2015 at 5:35 am

      Indeed, Jay, having this conversation is actually taking action! We are doing it! No matter the current system, the people have more power with their voice than they ever have. Steering that voice through conscious conversation (as opposed to talking about the weather) is the best way we can contribute.
      A call to action is only useful at the right moment with the right plan. But a conversation can grow and grow and be ready for the call to action when it comes.

      The internet is a system that is run by each individual effected by it. Luckily, our lives and well-being do not depend on the growing toddler that is the WWW. However; we can use this tool to experiment as a mental socialism. I have seen powerful men destroyed by public shaming on twitter (and good people too, got to be careful with out new power!), and I have seen policy enacted by mass appeal online (Net Neutrality). We the people have a louder voice and more power than we ever have before. The powers that be are highly ineffective at driving the online swarm. The nerds who really know how these nets work are highly passionate and active for the peoples rights on line. This is a safe place.

      So don’t feel pressured to act, just keep talking and the larger conversation will eventually ask you to personally contribute something small. Don’t let the trolls get you, and when the time comes, listen.

      Reply
  19. Mark says:
    June 29, 2015 at 12:59 am

    In the era of globalization and free trade, how would Socialism realistically work in the U.S.? The writer points to Norway as an example (as is common among leftists). Their generous system relies on the exploitation of natural resources, and their population is less than that of New York City. Of course they can afford all that stuff. But the question I ask, if we’re going to use Norway as an example, is: if we want all that wonderful stuff that Norway has, would we be willing to pay for it with increased fossil fuel production and exportation? Of course, we could drastically cut military spending and foregin aid, which would be preferable to top-down, one size fits all Federal legislation and raising taxes. We have 50 states. I’m all for each individual state forging their own way with regard to taxation, services, health care, education, etc. But comparing a tiny oil country to a giant country with 320 million people is a stretch. And in case anyone forgot, the economy has gone global and we (in the U.S.) have free trade agreements with half the thrid world. There’s nothing keeping companies here anymore. Socialism could work if it were implemented over the vast majority of the earth, and this would have to be done in a very short amount of time. As long as there are “low cost countries” that we have free trade agreements with, outsourcing is just one board decision away. Ask anyone who has been outsourced if we should raise corporate taxes and increase regulations.

    Reply
    1. Allan says:
      June 29, 2015 at 9:06 am

      The question isn’t only one of how much stuff there is, but how it is distributed, are we in this together or is it everyone for themselves. How we and our descendants respond will profoundly shape our lives and the future of the earth.

      Reply
  20. Don Salmon says:
    July 11, 2015 at 11:46 am

    What a wonderful relief this site is. A critic of capitalism who nonetheless appears to listen to both sides, is respectful to people who disagree with him (even when they are disrespectful to him).

    At least, that’s what I’ve gleaned from reading a few pages. What a breath of fresh air.

    On to read some more:>)

    Thank you.

    Reply
  21. John says:
    July 29, 2015 at 3:15 pm

    Shouldn’t the real label for this form of economic policy be ‘capitalistic socialism’ as the real economic engine is competition which creates the climate for choice and therefore the feedback for improvement? Gov’t here creates ‘governors’ to inhibit excessive greed while enabling true entrepreneurship to take hold. Note I am separating out innovation from this claim as innovation is truly a creative process while entrepreneurship is the exploitation of that creativity. By this I mean that a great idea, e.g. a great new algorithm for a search engine, can be created in a university setting, however, the exploitation of that idea to create Google requires entrepreneurship. The purpose of gov’t here is to prevent too great of a concentration of power which destroys competition and fosters really bad (greedy) behavior like corruption, cronyism and the ‘narrow vision’ of institutional bureaucracies. Why, you might ask, would this constrained competitive environment foster an equitable and sustainable society? Because the uncorrupted private sector will demand that the revenues collected by the gov’t in its governance be spent wisely and beneficially for all.

    Reply
    1. Allan says:
      July 29, 2015 at 4:28 pm

      From a purely economic point of view, I suppose this makes sense, although the countries where this model is a lived reality prefer ‘democratic socialism.’ Perhaps they see it as not merely an economic system, but something larger.

      Reply
  22. Chuck says:
    August 29, 2015 at 9:49 am

    I have always heard that Norway is a horrible example of how socialism works. Though they do it very well. I would love to live and work there. BUT…they are a relatively small country with a comparably large amount of natural resources that are used to supplement the national income. Oil, fisheries and tourism make up a larger part of their wealth than other nations could possibly be expected to do, so their model cannot be used in many( most ) other nations. The U.S. form of socialism would certainly benefit economically by have the government seize control of food supply, oil, and fishing rights…but so many poor nations are poor because they don’t have such national natural resources to use…or exploit if you think that a better word, than Norway and the U.S. That being said I agree that U.S. socialism it less than thought out, and Norway and other Scandinavian nations have a pretty nice little set up working for them.

    Reply
    1. Allan says:
      August 29, 2015 at 4:40 pm

      The point of the comparison with Norway is not that the U.S. can or should become a large and more complex version of Norway, but that existing democratic socialist countries provide a model from which the U.S. can ask critical questions about how our economic system works and the consequences that produces, something this country has, so far, been unwilling to do in a serious way.

      Reply
  23. Chuck says:
    August 29, 2015 at 6:04 pm

    …and in that way you are exactly right. Models to consider, but not copy. The U.S. is a socialist state wannabe in that programs are copied from socialist states but are not properly funded, and are quite simply half-ass (pardon that expression. It just applies so well). Such programs are funded from borrowing money yearly which can lead to disaster.

    Reply
  24. Zeus says:
    November 7, 2015 at 12:14 pm

    What ever happened to community based living? Towns and people providing goods and services for the good of the local community, everybody working together? Why are we not interested in that anymore? Are we so divided now?

    There might be an idea in that.. What does everybody NEED and how can we get it to them without the barrier of money? Food water shelter, not luxuries. Luxuries can be bought with money earned from contribution. Something like meritocracy, with the aspect of everyone getting the basics and everything they need, like access to information and people with knowledge, and tools to create.

    Their creations could be voted on by the people, campaigning could be unlawful so that factions aren’t created (only the individual is given power) and people must be allowed access to all practices and records a company has, minus personal records of employees, so that only the best practices and companies survive.

    Reply
  25. Marty says:
    November 22, 2015 at 10:45 pm

    Great read. Great discussion. Fuel the move forward with positive intelligent rational debate and don’t be afraid of change. Bravo.

    Reply
  26. Ros says:
    January 21, 2016 at 6:33 am

    I’ve also heard democratic socialism found in Scandinavian countries being called a type of ‘welfare capitalism’. Maybe this name would be more appealing to those who fear socialism.

    Reply
  27. Brian Skerrett says:
    February 6, 2016 at 11:55 am

    Just found your site and list of responses. I found it very helpful, interesting, respectful, and worthy of follow-up. Wonder if Bernie has read your stuff. We could use your input in our efforts in Canada.

    Reply
  28. Adam says:
    February 20, 2016 at 12:41 am

    Not only our country, but our world is at a pivotal point. Many things need to be reevaluated and changed for the future. Turn off your tv/phone, get out and interact with strangers, feel dirt between your toes, do something good for another, live in the present. The up coming election is huge. Let’s be the change that leads by action. Thank you for the article, much love to all y’all.

    Reply
  29. Steve says:
    April 10, 2016 at 8:30 pm

    I agree capitalism does have defiencies but sometimes you need to take a step back and look at things on a macro level. I have had the opportunity to visit several developing countries and have come to appreciate how fortunate we are to live in the U.S. Sure we have our problems but I have seen real poverty and real failure of economic policy. I think it is hard for anyone living in a first world economy to comprehend how little opportunity and reason for hope the citizens of these developing nations have.

    Capitalism and the U.S. has flaws for sure but I what other system has lifted so many out of poverty? That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive for continuous improvement but sometimes one should take a step back and appreciate what they have.

    Reply
    1. Allan says:
      April 25, 2016 at 10:47 am

      I want to suggest a few things in response to this comment. The first is that I don’t believe it’s possible to separate the wealth and abundance found in industrial societies from the poverty in the rest of the world, unless we ignore colonialism and imperialism in both their past and present forms.

      The second is to object to the description of capitalism as having ‘deficiencies’ and ‘flaws’ when its consequences include slavery and genocide in North America, two world wars plus Vietnam, the plundering of indigenous societies for their natural resources, and the ongoing destruction of the planet driven by capitalism’s relentless compulsion to consume everything and everyone in its path.

      As for lifting people out of poverty, a recent Federal Reserve study reported on NPR tells us that when asked if they could lay their hands on $400 in an emergency, 47 percent of the U.S. population said no, including some who identify as ‘middle class.’ Those societies that have the best record on poverty are the least capitalist in their organization. The United States is not even remotely close.

      Reply
    2. Mark Emery says:
      May 10, 2016 at 2:11 am

      Yes Steve , its the kids in those 3rd world countries you visited that made the shoes you wear and the shirt on your back for $1 a month in wages that drives the profit for the shareholders in the company that is driven by capitalism!
      I think you need to take a step back and have a look at things at the real ‘macro level’.

      Reply
  30. Neil says:
    April 18, 2016 at 12:47 am

    Capitalism is a tremendous system for putting intelligent creative people in a position to do things and make things really well and efficiently. It can create wealth and improve peoples lives and a fantastic rate, however it can run into problems when you allow big business to capture the governments ear and skew regulations in favour of finance for example or military or even pharmaceutical monopoly’s. Their is no reason a large capitalist country cant look around an borrow the best policies from a number of countries eg New Zealand Australia Denmark etc

    Reply
    1. Mark Emery says:
      May 10, 2016 at 1:59 am

      I’m Australian and I don’t think there is many positive policies to borrow from us. We are highly taxed and poorly serviced with our government selling off all our agricultural land, resources, and utilities for quick short term profit. Minimum wages haven’t risen here for 15 years, yet company profits and tax revenue are at an all time high. Greed is everywhere and the rich are getting richer as they say.

      Reply
      1. SJ says:
        May 21, 2016 at 2:03 am

        Yup, same goes for New Zealand.

        Reply
    2. Linda Edwards says:
      May 29, 2016 at 11:28 pm

      Neil,
      I agree with everything Mark says and I’m Australian too. I’d love to know which are the ‘best policies’ you’d like to borrow from Australia. Is it selling off everything (including virtually all the agricultural land)? Is it trying to ensure no small businesses are viable and only massive (mostly foreign owned) corporations survive? Is it killing off dairy farming (the latest mob to be under attack)? Perhaps it’s over-taxing and under-servicing the people you’d like to borrow? How about a health system that’s becoming so run-down it’s almost third world now? Or perhaps you’d like to borrow our education system that leaves students with massive debts in return for being moulded into compliant little cogs in the capitalist system rather than being educated in any way at all? No wait–we borrowed that from you!

      It’s odd to me how Americans are so terrified of socialism. I grew up in Britain, and the best things–like free health and education–were brought in by socialists (and have since been largely eroded by those obsessed with the so-called benefits of vulture capitalism), and the same is happening here. It was socialists who gave us free health care and free education, and both have been cut to shreds. This used to be called the lucky country, but not any more.

      Reply
  31. Mark Emery says:
    May 10, 2016 at 1:51 am

    Brilliant article Allan, very well written. Anyone who agrees with capitalism is either rich (1%) or ignorant (50+%) so that will make it hard to change…

    Reply
  32. William Wiedmann says:
    June 7, 2016 at 12:00 pm

    Great ideas Allan. Overall, a social democratic system seems to be the only way people may bring about a sharing of the world and its resources. Jean Jacques Rousseau wrote: “The fruits of the earth belong to everyone, while the earth itself belongs to no one.” And the global world capitalistic economy is showing its flaws and fallacies, even in China. And I would go so far as to suggest the reason the middle east radical Muslims hate us is, at its source, related to not sharing the wealth of the earth’s resources.

    Read about Iran’s democratically elected and leaning Mohammad Mosaddegh being overthrown in 1953 by the CIA in order to control the profits and delivery of Iran’s oil. And there are so many other examples where we see profit being more important than people by a global economic system trying to establish control.

    It would seem we should at least consider looking at some ways to put the world, its life forms and survival ahead of profits for any individuals. It may be for us to say that we are our brothers keeper.

    When we look at the earth from out in space we see one planet not divided by lines where countries exist. We created these lines and we need to look to the reality which exists beyond them. The survival of our planet should be put ahead of profits for individuals. We are all in this together. And if individuals have all the wealth in the world, it will mean nothing if they don’t have an environment that supports life.

    Reply
  33. Pyramidofcontrol says:
    July 3, 2016 at 11:29 pm

    Capitalism is great, but neo-liberalism went and destroyed that–made it cool to be selfish and gave the greedy a tangible economic excuse to harvest more labor from their workforce. Rich get richer, poor get poorer.

    For very informative history of neoliberalism, click here (I agree–this article is excellent. AJ)

    Reply
  34. The Magus says:
    July 7, 2016 at 1:06 am

    I agree with all authors views here. We live in the same world but different values. If you live for the money and believe money can buy everything you need, the capitalized societies like the US are the right place. Should you wish to live for other values than money, you are not alone and so do there exist places for you. Fortunate for those who can decide to live in a society, capitalist or not, of their choice. . . . Most of us do not have such luxury of choosing a country but live and make a living in one which we are born and raised.

    . . . . In recent years, especially after the 2008 crisis, people around the world care and think about economics—being capitalist or not, etc.—more than they did before. Why? Our ways of life, standards living, retirement plans, etc. have changed so much in a few years for the worse, losses of businesses, wealth, and jobs. This is intensified by increasing uncertainty in the way people do commerce around the world, especially in the capitalist states (the US, the UK, Germany, France, etc.).

    I think it is not what/who we are as capitalists or socialists, it is the way we do commerce that should be established as a secure, well-thought, and planed process. The continuum of such process can only be guaranteed should it be implemented by a collective expertise, not by a collection of ideologists, hot air theorists/economists, high fly politicians, or worst of all, the bankers.

    Reply
  35. Joseph says:
    August 16, 2016 at 7:25 am

    Denmark, Norway, and Sweden are relatively homogeneous countries with relatively tight social traditions. China is extremely heterogeneous with many minorities and the Russians seemed to have always yearned for a strong, dictatorial central government. It is therefore not surprising that systems will work (or fail) in great measure as a function of the society that adopts them. Try driving in Teheran and see what happens when a Western invention (the car) is used in a society that does not have the basic cultural characteristics to use it properly.

    There is no question that capitalism has gotten us to some rotten places–economically, culturally and environmentally. At the same time, it is not particularly useful to transplant a model–as advantageous as might seem–from one culture to another without accounting for societal characteristics.

    As an owner of a mid-sized business, I have profited personally from capitalism (and a great deal of hard work). At the same time I completely agree with the writer of this article that too many in many Western countries–probably the majority–have been hurt by this system and are likely to be hurting even more in the future. At the same time, voicing the standard “democratic socialism” mantra will get us nowhere if we do not come up with something that can work given the locale in question.

    As a note, the author conveniently ignores the failure of “democratic socialism” in countries like Greece, Italy and Spain, and its potential future collapse in countries such as France, Austria and Germany.

    As Monty Python might suggest, it may be time “now for something completely different.” This will take some original thinking that may require leaving behind the standard terms of “capitalism,” “socialism,” “Marxism,” etc. I have thought about it a great deal and have come up with nothing outside of my immediate experience. I hope someone does though. And soon.

    Reply
    1. Allan says:
      August 16, 2016 at 8:29 am

      I’ve not suggested ‘transplanting’ democratic socialism from countries like Norway to the U.S., but that we use their experience as a point of comparison from which to both illuminate and critique capitalism.

      Reply
  36. Marcelo says:
    January 20, 2017 at 3:38 am

    Not Just the 1%: The Upper Middle Class Is Larger and Richer Than Ever. Research shows the number of upper middle class households has more than doubled since 1979.

    Reply
  37. Peter Spooner says:
    March 3, 2017 at 8:43 pm

    Thank you all for your inspiring comments. My heart and mind are Democratic Socialist. I have never understood wealth accumulation and ownership to be the point of life.

    To have to overproduce and oversell and then spend more advertising and convince some of us to buy more because our jobs depend on it…. while on the next block children starve. How very very absurd!

    There are better ways to live. Some countries are mentioned in posts – Is there a “small community” model out there, or another experimental model that has been developed? I would not expect a large scale rejection of capitalism to happen anytime soon, but replication of small community models does not seem out of the question.

    I always understood Skinner’s “Walden Two” of 1946 to be such a model. Am I way off base? It is interesting to read his updated introduction to the 1973 re-release of the book.

    Peter Spooner

    Reply

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America's Next Civil War

Bringing Trump Nation Down to Size

At Winter Solstice: Collecting Silence

After the Election: Wrestling the Angel of Fear

What Are We Afraid Of?

Donald Trump and the Normalization of Rape

And Now Orlando: Manhood, Guns, and Violence

The Spiritual Politics of Roadkill

It's Not about You

Hijacking the Middle Class

The Truth about Preaching to the Choir

The Racism of Good White People

Clueless in Columbia: The Unbearable Weight of White Inertia

The Myth of Peaceful Protest

The Luxury of Obliviousness

Should Men Open Doors for Women?

America, Love It or Leave It

Proud to Be White?

The Hijacking of Political Correctness

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